tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post4161231211049077401..comments2024-03-26T00:09:13.941-07:00Comments on Dungeon of Signs: DL-1 Dragons of Despair - ReviewUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-67396164376526994252016-10-29T14:50:35.446-07:002016-10-29T14:50:35.446-07:00I haven't seen the revised versions, and I thi...I haven't seen the revised versions, and I think Dragonlance as a setting has some interesting elements, being an ongoing high-fantasy apocalypse. I think it one could play it as a straight sandbox, even with a gang of antisocial PCs who were in it for themselves (a lot of dirty dozen/Kelly's Heroes sort of situation can arise in a Krynn reeling from the advance of the dragon armies.<br /><br />There's a distrust for the players, saccharine characterization/detail, and a forced moralism in Dragonlance products (I find it in Hickman's other work as well) which somehow combine with/for an adversarial approach to GMing that really bugs me, and make the modules as written rather distasteful - despite the good ideas within.<br /><br />To me it doesn't matter if scripted/scene based play 'feels' like it's player decision driven - that it isn't risks the railroad and encourages bad GMing. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-22120729786745268142016-10-28T10:49:00.154-07:002016-10-28T10:49:00.154-07:00Thanks for the write up.
I'm currently runnin...Thanks for the write up.<br /><br />I'm currently running the revised edition of Dragons of Autumn for a group of players. I have to admit I'm a little sad to see so much disdain for the adventures but I can certainly understand the frustration.<br /><br />Since none of my players really know anything about Dragonlance, I certainly don't have to worry about them being familiar with the plot. As such, scripted events can seem player-caused and genuinely surprising. Regardless, no player wants to be railroaded. The revised edition allows for some more flexibility in player action (including players using their own characters instead of the pre-gens) but there are certainly still lots of "you must do this or else..." moments which I know most players and GMs detest.<br /><br />For an experienced DnD group who are used to shaping the world around them and having the freedom to do whatever they want, Dragonlance is going to be terrible. For a more casual group that and don't mind some limitations (only good alignments, willing to follow the "quest", etc.) and want to play as epic heroes fighting dragon armies in a detailed fantasy setting it's pretty awesome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-87058649250453642892016-04-13T08:35:32.424-07:002016-04-13T08:35:32.424-07:00A fun, thorough review, and I appreciate your ackn...A fun, thorough review, and I appreciate your acknowledgment of your personals tastes and potential biases.<br /><br />I do think (and admittedly it's been a long time since it first came out, so my memory may be inaccurate), that when the DL modules came out, they were actually written in a way that was reactionary to what was typical in a D&D module at the time, so that many of the elements you point out as "bugs" are actually "features." <br /><br />It's funny to look back on both the modules and the novels now, since the early novels falter when they try to adhere more closely to the original test game-play of the modules, while conversely, I take one of your key critiques of the modules to be that they're trying too hard to be novels :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10677191416240666925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-57667967598052294302014-05-05T00:52:13.858-07:002014-05-05T00:52:13.858-07:00I also really like that dragons are in Krinn from ...I also really like that dragons are in Krinn from the first adventure on. While I personally take a Shadowrun attitude towards dragons (demigods), I find myself coming around to the idea that they are these under 10HD creatures (unlike my demons - more like devils) that have a variety of special powers but aren't indestructible. <br /><br />Dragonalnce is actually compelling, I'd run a dragonlance game if:<br />1) it was a time triggered sandbox<br />2) where the characters weren't GM PCs<br />3) and the world was made a bit weirder (elves to evil fey, Mountain Dwarf to Chaos Dwarf/Eveel Dweger)<br />4) also the goblinoid races, driven into the barren and waste places of the world, were halfling/kender subsitutes.<br />5)The goal wasn't saving Krinn, and the dragon armies were a faction among many, maybe the worst and most powerful, but not the only option for your wealth/survivability motivated party.<br />Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-3760872742050913772014-05-03T04:45:19.065-07:002014-05-03T04:45:19.065-07:00The Dragons/Tiamat taking on allies is actually ca...The Dragons/Tiamat taking on allies is actually canonical in Dragonlance, if that helps any. Plenty of humans, singular, in the bad guy alliance. And some whole human states joined them, too.<br /><br />So I pretty much think you could do that in a Krynn-based game. The modules don't facilitate that, but if you're tossing the central plot of the modules why even care about that?<br /><br />By the way, I loved that there was a dragon in there. I played many games as a kid, and dragons were always held off as unbeatable boss creatures you could only fight if you got to high level. We didn't play any one game long enough to get there. So when I got this module that tossed a dragon right at you, I had to get it. And I still love that about it - it was Dungeons & Dragons, finally, in a way that the Dungeons & that One Dragon in G3 hadn't been to date.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, it's a railroad and heavy-handed, but some of what you'd like to see is in the series (refugees, places for tough choices, people selling out to the dragon side, etc.) is there, later. They don't execute it that well much of time, but it's there.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-46358600920982962312014-05-02T21:31:24.093-07:002014-05-02T21:31:24.093-07:00As a teenager I ran a party of 4 teens playing var...As a teenager I ran a party of 4 teens playing various of the pre-gens through this module. It was fun, the title, the invasion and sense of impending doom, the quest and finally the dragon combat etc. I think a couple of the pre-gens died there and I could not work out what to do so waved my hand and they were present in the next module of the series. Tika with the d8 frying pan that brings back memories!<br /><br />Now I look at it and think urgh...so different to what I currently run. Open sandbox with factions, with almost total player agency (things do happen without them), the world is shaped by their actions. I like your take on DL-1, refugees, guerrillas or soldiers/deserters, junk the story and let them have at the world. Also strip out the Tolkien elves they would have to be more alien and less friendly, dangerous to all who came into their controlled area.Pleonexiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16838283151758002202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-62958280277341442792014-05-01T16:51:47.807-07:002014-05-01T16:51:47.807-07:00Konsumterra: your last sentence, pretty much sums ...Konsumterra: your last sentence, pretty much sums up the Chaos War and War of Soul arcs. They were pretty much where I cut sling load on trying to keep up with the novels.Troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803261528324178102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-80303465934659845542014-05-01T11:35:50.899-07:002014-05-01T11:35:50.899-07:00When I was younger someone gave me one of the drag...When I was younger someone gave me one of the dragonlance modules for a birthday. My sole recollection of it is that Tika (one of the PCs, an ex-barmaid turned fighter) had a frying pan that did 1d8 damage. Alea iactanda esthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17951704235056042923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-59514839524675806332014-05-01T10:41:04.262-07:002014-05-01T10:41:04.262-07:00I understand your desire to have a chance of playe...I understand your desire to have a chance of player victory, and I wouldn't eliminate it completely, there's still an ancient black dragon the party of (likely 3rd level by the time they get to the ruins) party could slay and then the module would be as written.<br /><br />What I would need to run this is A) the possibility of death for the PCs, and the ability to add new replacement characters without derailing the campaign B) the chance for the players to make meaningful choices about how the dragon-war unfolds. They can fight to the last, take on the dragon's rainbow coalition all the the way to Tiamat, but the survivability of that option seems minimal within the rules Dragonlance is written for. The players need to also have options to retreat, retrench, cut deals or otherwise act in the ways that D&D players often act. To facilitate this I want a multipolar game world more akin to 1900's Europe then a bipolar one with Dragons v. Everyone else. The Dragons are evil, but they ain't stupid, they'll work with allies (they do already with goblinoids), why not ally with the PCs or a client state version of a human city?<br /><br />Perhaps I oversell the chance for defeat in the last few lines, but it'd need to be there for me to use the Dragonlance world, and not only as a terminal failure point.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-91496291638481226292014-05-01T10:31:46.986-07:002014-05-01T10:31:46.986-07:00I don't mind the art, it's like the cover ...I don't mind the art, it's like the cover of Castle Cadwell (which would have made a great circa 2008 electro album cover), it just makes me think over the top 80's kitsch - which to me seems pretty contemporary (well six year out of date maybe). I really do see the appeal of the heroism and EPIC fantasy, it's just I don't see running it as 1E AD&D or anything with similarly harsh combat - how does it work when every 4th Dracononian has a Web spell? Seriously, no party is going to survive 3 web spells - there's no save.<br /><br />Draconians are ok, I'd model them on the army of Imperial Japan a bit more, but that's just me.<br /><br />The maps - I don't like the maps, I don't find them pretty or especially useful. Design wise the map is good, but the actual physical map seems to be iso for the sake of iso when a series of maps for the basically flat levels and a small elevation/iso map showing their connections would be much clearer for me. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-5380705754968271702014-04-30T21:02:02.889-07:002014-04-30T21:02:02.889-07:00I ran DL1 back in the day (while in Elementary Sch...I ran DL1 back in the day (while in Elementary School, no less.) It's pretty railroady but at the time no one minded too much.<br /><br />If you like a heroic story, it's not terrible. It's also got some great bits worth salvaging - a great dungeon at the end, a nice idea (nice world ravaged by evil on the rise), and a dragon - which was a rarity in the games I played. Overall though, you're right - it's not what it could be, and it's less fun than it should be. That dungeon at the end cries out to be stolen for other uses, even if you like nothing else about it. It's a great dragon lair.<br /><br />But I have to disagree with this approach:<br />"Let the Dragons win, because no small plucky band of heroes can stop an army. Your Dragonlance game will be better for it."<br /><br />Eh, I don't want to play the plucky band of heroes doomed to fail against the evil hordes. I want a chance to win. In 1941 Russia, I want to play soldiers, not hapless refugees doomed to die. I want a shot at the fiction (from The Hobbit to The Black Company) not the fact (most of the peons die).Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-41542628344776723142014-04-30T19:14:14.883-07:002014-04-30T19:14:14.883-07:00Has a nice dungeon map if you ignore everything el...Has a nice dungeon map if you ignore everything else. I was probably 14 and loved the art i now find kitch hippy schmaltz. There are three DL games every friday in my club. Kender are mostly jerks but see the reactions if anyone wants to play a bitter kender with scars who hates both sides for his family dying. People are outraged. But a friendly minataur is OK. They seem to have epic was stuff and every dungeon has some crucial mission factor for the war. I played for a bit but my setting is a bit nasty and nobody in my club runs a game that I like really so I run 2&1/2 games a week. Out of whole series a few maps, a few cute elves i fancied as a teen, i do like draconians as a monster but mine are aztecs guarding the volcano entry to Tiamats hell. I never realized the mormon link but now it makes sense. Id like to see elric go to krynn, kill all the gods and let loose demons and elementals till it is an apocalyptic mess where every DL map is repopulated as monster hell holes with zombie versions of fan favorites.Konsumterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18170560484656800416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-48675181324166502402014-04-30T18:39:12.667-07:002014-04-30T18:39:12.667-07:00Yeah I ain't trying to say Dragonlance is bad-...Yeah I ain't trying to say Dragonlance is bad-wrong-fun or anything, I just think it's set up in a way to make a poor game of 1e D&D. The linear campaign might work for something more tactical combat focused (like 4E) but with the system 1e system it's gotta be Mary Sues and plot immunity to make it work. In my opinion early D&D systems are most appropriate for dungeon crawls or wilderness adventures with a flattish power curve. At the best it transforms into a domain game and a game of factions.<br /><br />As to the idea of giving the staff (or the discs) to the Draconians in exchange for something like allowing the tree town to be a free-city with limited self rule might not be the best idea, but it solves the immediate problems of Dragons of Despair with fewer murdered refugees and enslaved villagers in the view of the players. For me the key to a good game of D&D (especially at mid-level) is that the players make these kinds of decisions (which of course means that the unicorn needs to convince them to go to the ruins rather then simply be mystical and fatalistically noble). It becomes the players rearranging the game world through their choices, reasoned or absurd. The players get the world they create, and as a GM one just selects its starting state.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-34199229546721383392014-04-30T18:27:31.388-07:002014-04-30T18:27:31.388-07:00I don't think I have ever seen a 4E character ...I don't think I have ever seen a 4E character die. I know I tried kamakaze-ing my fighter more then once. Never could really get him into much trouble. After a while I just stopped tracking hp. Somehow I would get most of them back by the end of the encounter. Never failed. It's one of the many reasons I dislike 4E.Troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803261528324178102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-34545318516043851302014-04-30T18:18:01.074-07:002014-04-30T18:18:01.074-07:00I do wonder that, but I suspect that Dragonlance w...I do wonder that, but I suspect that Dragonlance was responding to a desire among D&D players as the game became more popular among younger players. Heck I remember the desire to have my high level wizard be unstoppable and perform heroic type activities. I don't have an issue with this kind of play, I just think D&D rules don't work with that sort of play. Maybe 2E and on work better for that kind of thing, 4E players don't die easy for example. To me it's just a different game - can't defend the elf poetry though.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-68492685249746746392014-04-30T18:12:04.375-07:002014-04-30T18:12:04.375-07:00I happen to be a Dragonlance fan, though I do agre...I happen to be a Dragonlance fan, though I do agree the DL series is rather linear. My suggestion, if you want a Krynn flavored game, get the Dragonlance Adventures book. It hits the highlights of the world without getting to bogged down in the details. Just skip the moon phase rules, their kinda convoluted. <br /><br />And giving the dragon army the staff would be a bad idea. It's one of the McGuffins that help bring back the good gods, the other being the discs. They don't come back, the only cleric is the one leading the dragon armies. That would certainly make the campaign more interesting.Troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803261528324178102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-47941158862781580582014-04-30T17:05:09.738-07:002014-04-30T17:05:09.738-07:00I couldn't help thinking as I read this that m...I couldn't help thinking as I read this that many of the features you discuss are the foundations of the slippery slope that led to 2nd edition being so bland.Calumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967342466040237845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-28097546055471300212014-04-30T15:18:07.375-07:002014-04-30T15:18:07.375-07:00Great post. Really enjoyed it. Now I'm think...Great post. Really enjoyed it. Now I'm thinking I might want to try and re-write DL1 as a sandbox. :)Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158916950442942918noreply@blogger.com