tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post4779645420189126470..comments2024-03-13T04:42:05.581-07:00Comments on Dungeon of Signs: B2 - Keep on the Borderlands - ReviewUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-41826551997968352632015-09-12T22:52:46.689-07:002015-09-12T22:52:46.689-07:00I find verticals in D&D mapping on a 10' x...I find verticals in D&D mapping on a 10' x 10' grid are often flawed as one is dealing with a fundamentally 2D space - or in the case of multiple levels a pancake of 2D space. Video games with 3D modelling tend to do it better, but it's often hard for players to really visualize the space anyway. <br /><br />In B2 it hardly seems to matter, especially with the idea that the hill heights are an issue, one need not really describe these hills in too much detail, and the largely crude passages can slope as needed. The map is functional otherwise - though admittedly not the most amazing example of mapping. I find less of a problem in its height and distance errors then I do in the limited amount of looping. It has a large number of entrances, but most lead into small linear lairs, though there is some inter-connectivity.<br /><br />The question for me is if small separate "modular" or "nodal" lairs are a more functional map style then the larger dungeon level where lairs and regions are part of a much more interconnected network.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-32471974121727793472015-09-12T02:20:45.801-07:002015-09-12T02:20:45.801-07:00The cave map was flawed. There are parts where you...The cave map was flawed. There are parts where you can descend down stairs and emerge above where you entered. Much of it would be exposed to the sky because the ceiling is either going to be thin or non existant, and some is so far above the surface it would be in the air.Sean Robert Meaneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-36944874935370281252015-02-15T05:03:22.738-08:002015-02-15T05:03:22.738-08:00another point in favor of B2: its the only module ...another point in favor of B2: its the only module that I ever saw that introduced me to a plethora of middle age terminology. Learning the game at about 10-12 years old, I could figure out how to edit the story/ make factions of the tribes (that was obvious) but I would of never learned all that vocabulary on my own.<br /><br />-Jimmy<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-40415748749120690362014-08-20T11:10:47.199-07:002014-08-20T11:10:47.199-07:00Yeah all that would work, I like to keep the monst...Yeah all that would work, I like to keep the monsters factional (though in fewer factions). Still, a very versitile module or mini campaign.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-34468439400664123142014-08-18T11:03:19.520-07:002014-08-18T11:03:19.520-07:00One thought I had, the humanoids are not living th...One thought I had, the humanoids are not living there but rather they are visiting. I thought, a great way to put all those humanoids in one place and not have it be a total blood bath 24/7, was to have them be emissaries from their tribes, called together by the priests of the evil chapel. The idea being that the Chapel serves a much higher and more powerful being, and potentially making KotB an introduction to a longer campaign.<br /><br />Keeping the encounters more or less intact, one change I thought made sense is if the players leave the caves of chaos, go back to the keep and return again, the humanoids should be better prepared. Once one or two of the caves get wiped out, the others start coordinating better...making more traps...posting scouts, sentries, maybe ambushes outside of the Caves of Chaos immediate area. More importantly, they start sending for reinforcements of all sorts. <br /><br />Just a thought. One change I usually make is the main priest in the Chaves of Chaos to be higher level than 3rd. I usually do my best to have him escape. Nothing like a bitter enemy as a constant thorn in the players side as the story arch develops. <br /><br />The Cave of the Unknown is important, particularly given its proximity to the evil chapel. Are the clerics holding something back? Are they searching for something lost? Are they preparing a larger chapel area for some newer and greater enemy? <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02392366447724057374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-9158050852232030172014-03-05T18:42:32.953-08:002014-03-05T18:42:32.953-08:00This sounds like an awesome way to spin B2, thank ...This sounds like an awesome way to spin B2, thank you for sharing!Peter Fröhlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03688076015831464616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-64027663620495881382014-02-05T21:06:03.247-08:002014-02-05T21:06:03.247-08:00Just love the phrase "The Owlbear Rules the N...Just love the phrase "The Owlbear Rules the Night" - Sounds well run and like a lot of fun.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-48045949141710441042014-02-05T11:38:05.566-08:002014-02-05T11:38:05.566-08:00I will openly concede that its difficult for me to...I will openly concede that its difficult for me to discuss B2 objectively because, like you, this was my gateway to gaming. In 1981 my uncle, all of two years older than me, asked me if I had ever heard of "Dungeons & Dragons." We rolled up a party (yes, I played all six members) and explored the Caves of Chaos.<br /><br />Short story: The kobolds offered little resistance. The minotaur killed us all.<br /><br />I took part in several other excursions. I remember well learning that sleep spells are ineffective on the waves of zombies and skeletons in the evil temple. Another TPK ended dramatically with my cleric on the business end of the EHP's snake staff. I'd guess a good four TPKs in all and I loved every second of it.<br /><br />It was also the first module I ever had (like Peter Frampton Comes Alive, everyone had a copy). I pored over it. I've run it numerous times, in different ways, in different settings. I cannot be the only DM to end up with the Keep serving as the base of operations for a fairly sizeable campaign. Probably the most enjoyable effort was having allowing a friend to run his 10th level ranger through alone as a one-off. Alas, a poor time to roll a 1 on a saving throw versus poison! A later group was certainly happy to find his Rod of Lordly Might. ;)<br /><br />As a beginner module, for beginner DMs and players, it has no equal. No other work comes close. This delivers a first and addictive dose of D&D. The wrinkles you point out are only noticed by grizzled veteran gamers like ourselves, jaded by decades of play. They are not noticed by the intended audience. I would offer that if run -as is- today for a group of newbie gamers, they would have a blast.<br /><br />What is also important to note that this one of a handful of the early efforts that truly foresaw the future of the hobby. This module, at its core, is a sandbox with a "node" to be explored and lots of room and hints to expand those Borderlands.<br /><br />If I inserted it today, I might indeed switch up some of the humanoids. I'd probably place a little mini-dungeon area within the Keep. Then again, I'm in a retro mood. I might fire up Monster Magnet and run as is. 3d6 in order. :)Gnarley Boneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11942095647867654862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-32598397528107268172014-02-04T19:33:48.195-08:002014-02-04T19:33:48.195-08:00I'm approaching the conclusion of a great run ...I'm approaching the conclusion of a great run using B2, and it definitely requires some thought and an old school mindset to make it "work". I've found that the 5-pronged Holmesian alignment system is an effective cipher (chaotic evil orcish servants of the Shrine of Evil Chaos vs. original lawful evil goblinoid inhabitants). The reason that the various humanoids are holed up in their lairs is that they are tired of battling it out in the gorge below and are scheming up plots to sway the balance of power. Moreover, most hate the daylight, and the owlbear rules the night since moving in.<br /><br />Since the players initially cleared out the goblin and hobgoblin caverns, the majority of the caves are now filled with various orcish tribes, all summoned by the powers of the Shrine of Evil Chaos. The exploratory expeditions therefore gave way to commando-style raids, and after the owlbear was defeated there have been marauding bands of orcs roving the countryside at nightfall, becoming progressively bolder.<br /><br />Hence, we've got the apparent success of repeated excursions into the caves (in which there have been many character deaths, particularly at first) juxtaposed against the paradoxical consequence of more and more monsters moving into the area. The party has finally discovered the Shrine and are preparing an intricate assault to neutralize the threat. If they are successful, the orc tribes will turn upon each other, but the Caves will remain - well, Chaotic!D. Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08277670673178463645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-82663693263142689962014-01-29T13:30:49.885-08:002014-01-29T13:30:49.885-08:00Honestly I totally understand Hedgehobbits reserva...Honestly I totally understand Hedgehobbits reservations there - that was one of my complaints about B4 - it really does indicate that the hobgoblins (and hobgoblins especially should be all military and into patrols, alarms and counterattacks) are lazy and like to wait around for death. B2, while it's true that the guardrooms are off to the side of the entrances and outdoor guards aren't generally placed (except by the kobolds) does make a point of talking about the monsters being responsive to player attack. The individual lairs all discussion group responses to incursions, and I think it's meant to be run as "you can sneak up once, and the creatures will generally stay in their holes, but once that cave is wiped out the rest of the caves are on alert. Hence the secret backdoors and faction games. The idea that the creatures just stay complacent isn't unfounded, but I think that the "how to run" section of the adventure (a major reason I like it) really discourages this without explicitly stating it. Also Yes a pitched battle between the PCs and either orcs or goblins would be hard to win (well maybe not with enough sleep spells), even with a big B/X party full of NPCs and henchmen. I think one is supposed to presume that the monsters want to avoid a costly battle with a strong adventuring party, because their enemies will jump them afterward.<br /><br />Now the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands takes it in an interesting direction, with the fallout of a successful raid on the caves being the increasing power of the temple, who is using necromancy and bandits to kill off the surviving humanoid factions. This is a pretty solid set up and rather interesting (especially for a 2e product).Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-6122004418142649582014-01-29T11:46:13.075-08:002014-01-29T11:46:13.075-08:00@Hedgehobbit
I don't think that follows at al...@Hedgehobbit<br /><br />I don't think that follows at all. Why are you even assuming that the PCs and monsters are necessarily enemies? And why do you assume that the monsters would be able to work together effectively? They may not even be able to communicate (I don't remember exactly what the language situation was like).<br /><br />I think the faction structure makes it pretty clear that PCs should try to get on the good side of at least one group to begin with, even if they plan on betrayal at a later point. This is actually a strength of B2, because it makes kick in door/fight monsters a less viable strategy.<br /><br />(Also, <i>of course</i> guards can call for reinforcements. Why should the module need to state that?)Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-42746596252288473742014-01-29T11:33:18.851-08:002014-01-29T11:33:18.851-08:00The humanoids all have "guardrooms" that...The humanoids all have "guardrooms" that are situated inside the caves, out of line of sight of the door. But the main issue is that if the monsters attacked in force, they could easily destroy any party of low level PCs as soon as they enter the valley, even the kobolds guards are listed simply as a distinct encounter. There is no mention of the kobolds calling for the guard who are just a few yards away. The only way this adventure works in even the slightest way is for the DM to keep the monsters inside their own rooms passively awaiting death. <br /><br />This used to be one of my favorite modules, but seeing it as a player totally changed my opinion. It was the first adventure I ever ran BTW. Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-76703351818058128442014-01-28T11:26:19.755-08:002014-01-28T11:26:19.755-08:00I've definitely spent more time running player...I've definitely spent more time running players through intrigues in the keep than I have fighting humanoids in the caves of chaos.Alea iactanda esthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17951704235056042923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-80702294503192783702014-01-27T17:52:44.198-08:002014-01-27T17:52:44.198-08:00We used to take on the "The Evil Keep", ...We used to take on the "The Evil Keep", sort of a Mirror Universe version of the Keep where everyone was their evil twin (or good twin in case of the jovial Priest).Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-12450147152109888972014-01-27T13:21:21.286-08:002014-01-27T13:21:21.286-08:00@Hedgehobbit
Why would you assume that the humano...@Hedgehobbit<br /><br />Why would you assume that the humanoids never leave their caves or do not respond to action in the canyon? Placement of creatures within the module is just a reasonable default starting position.<br /><br />Surely incautious adventurers that make a racket should reap the consequences of that choice.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-45044421093366906342014-01-27T11:02:04.536-08:002014-01-27T11:02:04.536-08:00I don't think the map is that bad, but yes the...I don't think the map is that bad, but yes the caves could use more work - maybe if the keep was less detailed? I note most humanoid caves have no water source.<br /><br />The kobolds post guards, one orc den posts a lookout, and I'd presume that once on alert about outsiders the humanoids would be more careful. This leads to the united front of monsters you mention, and a need for social shennanigans.<br /><br />I think the GM advice is excellent in B2 as well.<br />Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-91920595435426543612014-01-27T09:13:54.355-08:002014-01-27T09:13:54.355-08:00I played in this a few months ago and my opinion o...I played in this a few months ago and my opinion of it worsened considerably. The maps were boring with little interconnectivity and no vertical elements plus each cave followed the same model: guardrooms, common rooms, store room followed by king's chamber with king, guards/harem, and treasure. Both the store room and king's chamber always had a door. Working one monster against the other is always discussed but almost impossible due to the language problem and the fact you can't find out information about what the monsters want without going into their caves, getting attacked, and slaughtering a bunch of them. Not exactly the best negotiating position. But the main problem was the complete lack of sense the caves made; none of the monster bothered to post look outs. If the monsters acted in any way rationally, they'd poor out of their caves in numbers as soon as the party made it to the valley. A party of low level characters would simply have no chance. It makes no sense for the monsters to just sit inside their caves waiting to be killed. <br /><br />B2 is a terrible example for beginning DMs. It's amazing any of us who started with it kept playing. T1 and B1 (if you fix the map) are both light years better. Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-90803547112695083512014-01-26T22:43:05.296-08:002014-01-26T22:43:05.296-08:00For me '2' monster factions is the most im...For me '2' monster factions is the most important. Not that one needs to focus on the 'noble savage orc' but because otherwise it's likely to turn into "Beyond the next cave entrance you discover - More Humanoids!" which is painfully dumb after a while. I honestly think the bugbears are the best potential allies - they're basically murder hobos with their too clever to work plans and mercenary attitude.<br /><br />I've lately thought the best solution to Keep would be to have some henchman drive a large wagon of booze into the central area with a sign on it that says "Borderland Booze Delivery" and have the party hide in the woods. When the humanoids are done killing each other and nicely drunk of captured wine, it's time to sack the winner's caves.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-52889651801363322582014-01-26T21:55:02.272-08:002014-01-26T21:55:02.272-08:00Ah, yes, that's the blog entry. It was just s...Ah, yes, that's the blog entry. It was just such a Zak approach that I forgot. Ha. <br />And who says we have to play good parties anyway? Vance Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03911245780875316627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-88937207144171043872014-01-26T20:40:05.643-08:002014-01-26T20:40:05.643-08:00I believe that was from B/X Blackrazor:
http://bx...I believe that was from B/X Blackrazor:<br /><br />http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/2011/08/secret-of-keep-on-borderlands.html<br /><br />I don't think sacking the Keep is great idea - because unless the PCs want that rare variety of orc ringworm where will they recover between adventures? I just like making my players think "are these monsters so bad in their opposition to the jerks back in town" - usually before slaughtering said monsters and taking their stuff.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-90805028037781537332014-01-26T20:21:52.214-08:002014-01-26T20:21:52.214-08:00I recall Zak S. (?) commented that the point of ha...I recall Zak S. (?) commented that the point of having so much detail in the Keep (especially treasure) was that the Keep could be considered the 'true' target of the party. Coincidentally, I recently received my original books and modules, and sure enough, my B2 margin notes imply that I was prepping for a potential campaign to overcome/rob the Keep.Vance Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03911245780875316627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-46921898050326318282014-01-26T19:18:31.773-08:002014-01-26T19:18:31.773-08:00I just skimmed it - it's not bad and lays out ...I just skimmed it - it's not bad and lays out a nice alternative scenario that makes for a good bad (humanoid) v. badder (evil damn cult) scenario. It's a pile of 2e verbosity and mired in a very boring vanilla game world, but has definite potential - thanks for pointing it out. I like the caves with all the dead orcs that are obviously supposed to make the player's feel bad about massacre.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-67598572178906136512014-01-26T19:11:30.474-08:002014-01-26T19:11:30.474-08:00I'm less averse than you are to the 1 and 2 is...I'm less averse than you are to the 1 and 2 issues, which have a certain nostalgic charm for me, but the suggestions made for 3 and 4 are all solid. I intend to steal them when I run this in a 40th anniversary retro session!Edward Hamiltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722813928118912296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-12200353908496366232014-01-26T17:48:07.118-08:002014-01-26T17:48:07.118-08:00As it happens, Return to the Keep on the Borderlan...As it happens, Return to the Keep on the Borderlands hits 2, 3, and 4. (The keep is still pretty goody-two-shoes LG, though.)<br /><br />It's pretty impressive IMO, especially for a late-era TSR product.Allandaroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01046079318999891967noreply@blogger.com