tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post5674007139493848609..comments2024-03-13T04:42:05.581-07:00Comments on Dungeon of Signs: Gold for Experience in 5th Edition D&DUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-18788619166973298842018-02-13T20:02:50.254-08:002018-02-13T20:02:50.254-08:00'One returns with 1000 GP and the other has 50...'One returns with 1000 GP and the other has 500 GP. Why does one fighter "experience" twice as much as the other?'<br /><br />If GP can be spent on training or research, certainly I can see more gold offering more XP. This could become a problem if players try to game the system and level up by training all the time - hence only gold from treasure earned in adventures can be converted to XP.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05032456632352305575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-17093984123327686762018-01-22T02:07:53.275-08:002018-01-22T02:07:53.275-08:00@ JB:
Just to add a further note,
Some folks (me...@ JB:<br /><br />Just to add a further note,<br /><br />Some folks (me) are stuck with friends who refuse to play B/X, 1e, etc. and so the weekly game just is 5e (and thank God for that small blessing, because 5e is a breath of semi-fresh air after Pathfinder).<br /><br />Which is to say, I was already going to do GP=XP when I run 5e, but it's nice to get somebody else's description of what that might mean before I write it all up from scratch.Cullenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06525346014856998303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-60454602232795011152018-01-19T09:31:14.307-08:002018-01-19T09:31:14.307-08:00My own way of handling this is pretty simple: 1 xp...My own way of handling this is pretty simple: 1 xp per gp recovered, and some multiplier (usually 3x) for each gp _spent_. This keeps the party cash poor while letting the DM throw plenty of material treasure into the mix. As long as you don't let them buy magic items easily, you're good to go.Michael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-5459365366596994132018-01-08T12:18:37.778-08:002018-01-08T12:18:37.778-08:00One of the things I really enjoy about 5e is the f...One of the things I really enjoy about 5e is the fact that it's the first new edition I've played since 2nd that feels easily moddable. In 3, 3.5, and 4, it always felt like everything was so aggressively balanced that introducing even minor alterations was going to be a headache. <br /><br />5e seems (especially when looking at various statements made by Jeremy Crawford on the subject) to not really be particularly interested in questions of balance or worried about abuse of mechanical proficiency, so it's a serviceable base skeleton on which to hang a few things (in much the same way OD&D is). It may seem arbitrary to those of us who've been playing for 20 years or more, but a lot of people new to the hobby probably find OD&D-flavored 5e significantly less intimidating than 5e-flavored OD&D.JHansenhimselfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10363312129015921100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-62580245549280097632018-01-06T12:30:45.117-08:002018-01-06T12:30:45.117-08:00@StevenWarble If you run any systen with noncombat...@StevenWarble If you run any systen with noncombat skills that improve with level - or even if you use secondary skills from 1e - the idea that experience comes almost exclusively from combat even if it improves you noncombat skills is also an abstraction. <br /><br />GP=XP rewards players for achieving goals, regardless of the method chosen to achieve that goal. You can use a different method if the goals are different. <br /><br />In a sense, you aren't getting XPs for cash. You are getting XPs for finding and extractimg it, and in the case of unusual or bulky items, safely transporting and finding a buyer for it. <br /><br />Which can be an adventure in itself. I remember one of my players once was not too careful in trying to find a buyer for some jewelry, and ended up attracting the attention of the cult he had taken it from. Beorichttp://campaignunderdeconstruction.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-59256752590702436682018-01-05T17:49:20.944-08:002018-01-05T17:49:20.944-08:00Do Hit Points, AC and HD = attack bonus all cause ...Do Hit Points, AC and HD = attack bonus all cause similar troubles?<br /><br />It's a mechanic in a rather abstracted game, simulationism has to stop somewhere - plus if you want a reason for it then make one up (having all dwarven PCs may help here...)Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-31412559109847334692018-01-05T11:17:04.262-08:002018-01-05T11:17:04.262-08:00@ Gus
I like the elegance of GP=XP, I like what it...@ Gus<br />I like the elegance of GP=XP, I like what it does, I like the play it encourages... but without a "why" I just can't embrace it whole heartedly. Its just too big an issue for me to accept as an abstraction without pulling me out of the game. I think I have too dang much narrativism in me.StevenWarblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12697680166430879676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-44367337634331795442018-01-05T10:56:38.217-08:002018-01-05T10:56:38.217-08:00@ Gus:
I get you, man. Sorry about my "wet b...@ Gus:<br /><br />I get you, man. Sorry about my "wet blanket-ism."JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-87032232196242981552018-01-02T07:12:39.439-08:002018-01-02T07:12:39.439-08:00Ah I can see it working for that, but yeah player ...Ah I can see it working for that, but yeah player wealth is rarely a concern of mine, and I think generally not so serious in a sandbox game - there's always stuff to spend money on.<br /><br />Alternatively you could fiddle with the amount of XP required to level, or prices (I generally change pricing structures).Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-10223258893622887462018-01-01T17:37:13.034-08:002018-01-01T17:37:13.034-08:00I’m not sure I’m making myself clear. You propose...I’m not sure I’m making myself clear. You propose to assign XP for treasure at a 1:1 ratio. This means that, in your example, by the time the party of four level 1 PCs get to second level they will have 1200 gp, when they should only have around 560.<br /><br />All I do is change the ratio. Using your 5e example, so long as the characters are first level, for each gold piece they recover, they would get 2.1 XPs. So the party levels after they have recovered 572 gp. If I was designing a dungeon with the goal of having the PCs level at the end of it, instead of placing 1200 to 2000 gp in the dungeon as you suggested, I would place 600 to 1000 gp.<br /><br />If it doesn’t matter how quickly the PCs get rich in your game then there is no need to bother with this. However, PC wealth does matter in my game, and I find establishing the ratios to be much less work than trying to drain excess cash by manufacturing things for the PCs to spend their money on, and hoping I am taxing the PCs at the right rate.<br />Beorichttps://campaignunderdeconstruction.wordpress.com/2017/12/23/awarding-experience-for-treasure/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-82478194721228827202018-01-01T16:46:49.517-08:002018-01-01T16:46:49.517-08:00It certainly isn't that much math in my 4e gam...It certainly isn't that much math in my 4e game. When I create an encounter I place treasure as per usual in accordance with the dungeon/monster/encounter level. If a party finds/retrieves the treasure, I apply the multiplier that is appropriate to the party's level in order to determine the experience to award. That is hardly onerous.<br /><br />I do have to look the multiplier up on a chart. But I only have to do that once when they level, because the multiplier stays the same throughout the level. Follow the link in my name, you can see the chart. Beorichttps://campaignunderdeconstruction.wordpress.com/2017/12/23/awarding-experience-for-treasure/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-77823874491631211562018-01-01T15:37:43.006-08:002018-01-01T15:37:43.006-08:00I like xp for money spent on somethinng that makes...I like xp for money spent on somethinng that makes sense for a character usually training, research, sacrifices, and influnce along with carousing. It keeps the money flowing out of PC coffers and that's always a good thing. JDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-81497808031483200322018-01-01T15:02:32.943-08:002018-01-01T15:02:32.943-08:00See this seems like a rather excessive amount of c...See this seems like a rather excessive amount of calculation for very little benefit. If I am designing a dungeon with 4 lvl one players that I want to get them to lvl 2 (Using 5E that 1200 XP) I just put say 1200 - 2000 GP in there. If they don't find it all I shrug and they can explore other locations or whatever to make up the remainder (same if 8 PCs bumrush the adventure), likewise if they find more treasure I shrug and they have marginally more money and XP - but hey they earned, I certainly hid that extra 800 GP behind a secret door or in a puzzle.<br /><br />I can see where the method you discuss might be useful if I was running a very strict set of scenes where PC level was a near absolute for overcoming an enemy (both because of a steep power curve and/or because combat was being run as sport). None of these are a wrong way to run a game, but as suggested above GP=XP isn't especially useful in a scene based game, because the narrative structure (and character advancement) are already assumed to be part of the GM's job. <br /><br />Location based games don't make that assumption, and have far less need to tailor threats to PC level so the speed of advancement (among other things) is not of much concern. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-13023226153926733562018-01-01T13:10:14.059-08:002018-01-01T13:10:14.059-08:00As I understand it (and I'm just getting my he...As I understand it (and I'm just getting my head into 5e now, I haven't played a session yet), one can calculate the average treasure generated by the random generators over the course of a level. You can then find the ratio of XP to expected treasure for that level. <br /><br />Say the PC is 3rd level. The DM knows he needs 1800 XP to get from 3rd level to 4th level. <br /><br />The DM also knows that on average the PC's share of the treasure hoards that will be received between the start of level 3 and achieving level 4 is 140 gp.<br /><br />As long as the PC is 3rd level he will receive 13 XP for each 1 gp he recovers (1800 XP/140 gp = 12.85 XP/1 gp). If he chooses to take greater risks to gain more treasure than threats typical to his level would ordinarily grant, then he can level faster. <br /><br />In theory this is not linked to XP by session or XP by adventure, because the multiplier is dependent on the level of the PC, not the dungeon or monster. If the PC wants to take greater risks to achieve greater rewards, he levels faster. And you don't skew the game by overloading the PCs with wealth before they would ordinarily achieve it.<br /><br />It works really well in 4e because the amount of treasure awarded increases with each level, and can be made to increase with the power of the monsters. This makes it easy for players to choose risk/reward. <br /><br />However, since writing that comment I have noticed that the same treasure is awarded for each level over the course of a tier, so there are not greater rewards until you hit the next tier. In that case, it may be better to use the fraction (experience gained over tier)/(average gold received of tier) instead, but you are still going to have to tweak the system to ensure that the bigger threats within a tier are more likely to have the bigger hoards.<br /><br />So if the 1st level PC needs 6500 XP to get to the next tier (level 5), and would gain 560 gp over that time, while he is level 1-4 you multiply every gp received by 12 (approximately 6500/560). But you also distribute the 560 gp so the weaker threats have less than the stronger threats. And probably convert it to silver pieces so the amounts don't seem so lame.Beorichttps://campaignunderdeconstruction.wordpress.com/2017/12/23/awarding-experience-for-treasure/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-40299548939605060212018-01-01T10:24:25.434-08:002018-01-01T10:24:25.434-08:00If I understand your suggestion, you're talkin...If I understand your suggestion, you're talking about varying XP based on treasure actually recovered to increase or decrease it in a way that promotes a specific speed for leveling? <br /><br />This to me sounds like a means of backing into XP by session or XP by adventure. I enjoy the way that with XP=GP one can have sessions that produce a great deal of XP (though luck, design or player ingenuity) and those that produce little. It's a way to reward success and failure rather then maintain a steady reward.<br /><br />As a method of modifying hoard size to fit XP expectations (so one gets to use the enjoyable old treasure generation systems) I can see it working, but personally I just sort of eyeball the treasure amounts and drop them in based on the Gygaxian ecology (e.g. not real ecology) of the location. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-10020918851695481052018-01-01T10:19:01.755-08:002018-01-01T10:19:01.755-08:00I've read a little Traveller and played a game...I've read a little Traveller and played a game or two - I've also played the second game I mention, which is Universe and one of the more complex and messy 80's simualtionist efforts. The point I'm trying to make about Traveller is in its Gm facing rules - Book 3's efforts at naturalism and a coherence not too at odds with contemporary space science that compared with the 16th century 'science' of Spelljammer make very little sense.<br /><br />Spelljammer is interesting in this way, it concocts a universe that is utterly at odds with modern knowledge about space physics and mechanics, but then spends 1/2 the GM book trying to step back into that sort of scientific rationalization rather just running with the enjoyable falsehoods or early modern celestial mechanics. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-85984644162222730452018-01-01T09:54:24.172-08:002018-01-01T09:54:24.172-08:00I wonder if you have read or it played Traveller a...I wonder if you have read or it played Traveller as you refer to it as "hard sci fi," which is exactly what it is not...otherwise, interesting and useful article even though I have zero interest in D&D.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-24330606792185938862017-12-31T15:05:48.868-08:002017-12-31T15:05:48.868-08:00I do gold-for-XP in 5e (& great post Gus!) - 5...I do gold-for-XP in 5e (& great post Gus!) - 5e has a lot of nice features like the Proficiency Bonus, but the biggest advantage of using 5e is that I keep the player-facing rules familiar to the players who turn up with their 5e PHB, while altering the back-room mechanism by which XP is awarded. It changes the campaign tone but in a way that requires zero work from the players. It is not hard, either - personally I just use OSR material and rarely alter the GP listings, while typically reducing 5e monster XP to 1/5. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-89633892719006206682017-12-30T09:12:40.404-08:002017-12-30T09:12:40.404-08:00Thanks!Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17520361578404840499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-19749205250798072972017-12-29T15:04:42.640-08:002017-12-29T15:04:42.640-08:00Another way to calculate experience is to generate...Another way to calculate experience is to generate random hoards according to the rules, and multiply GP received by the experience necessary to level divided by the expected treasure that would be received over the course of that level. <br /><br />The result is the experience received from the treasure which should average out to be correct over time, and mitigates any potential issues with accidentally giving out too much gold or too much experience.<br /><br />You can calculate wealth by level yourself or just google it.Beorichttps://campaignunderdeconstruction.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-31319284174860604302017-12-29T10:02:34.115-08:002017-12-29T10:02:34.115-08:00JB - you shouldn't, perhaps I shouldn't (I...JB - you shouldn't, perhaps I shouldn't (I am very happy with my current hybrid OD&D ruleset) but there's a lot of people who really like 5E and I think some of them may also want to use it in a way that encourages a more classic playstyle. I've realized reading the 5E DMG and 5th edition commentary that a lot of folks playing it don't understand the basic old school play-style and how the rules work with it. <br /><br />This is an attempt to explain not just how XP=GP works but what it works for and how it works as part of a rules complex.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-40799047986333527072017-12-29T09:54:28.607-08:002017-12-29T09:54:28.607-08:00Right. I've used GP=XP before and always tall...Right. I've used GP=XP before and always tallied the total loot gain, then divided.<br />It's fun when the party goes, "Wait, I got 500 XP, but only 400 GP?" and then it dawns on them that the dick-ass thief was alone in the throne room for a while...Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11245925772331967567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-18147326393757152042017-12-29T09:19:48.568-08:002017-12-29T09:19:48.568-08:00Um...why bother? Why bother with all this work to ...Um...why bother? Why bother with all this work to transform the 5E game when older editions are available? Is 5E such a desirable rule set?<br /><br />I know this sounds like snark, but I'm actually curious. I don't think 5E is all that fantastic, and small rule changes that one might prefer (advantage/disadvantage, "death saves," etc.) can easily be bolted on to earlier editions of the game...far easier than over-hauling the foundational base for character development and adventure design considerations in 5E publications.<br /><br />I just don't get it. Really. Please tell me why I should take the time to convert 5E, when I can (easily, cheaply) pick up a copy of B/X, 1st Edition AD&D, or the original White Box books on DriveThruRPG. I'll have my gold for XP development, I'll have my henchmen, my spell research rules, etc. and there won't be any fuss or muss about it.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-59665370056403556232017-12-29T07:52:58.005-08:002017-12-29T07:52:58.005-08:00This was suggested in the original 1977 Dragon pie...This was suggested in the original 1977 Dragon piece. Carousing is of course an optional risk for XP thing players can decide to do or not.<br /><br />One could conceivably write a table for doing good works as well - quite easily even - filled with consequences like being marked by demons a target for temptation, obtaining a blessing or catching lung rot from kissing the heads of too many diseased paupers in benediction.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-78627451295409313522017-12-29T07:50:11.466-08:002017-12-29T07:50:11.466-08:00I don't worry much about party assumptions and...I don't worry much about party assumptions and penalizing PCs for another player's actions. I see worries about that sort of stuff highlighted on the DnDnext reddits - but for me the key points of fairness in GMing are:<br /><br />A) Did I provide good descriptions so the results of an action and the risks involved could be fairly known?<br />B) Did the risks/rewards and actions of the world/npcs follow logically from player action and choice?<br /><br />For me the point of moral play is that consequences exist and are organic. Also I don't think the sort of personality driven murderhoboism you're discussing is an artifact of XP method.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.com