tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post1021950700652814981..comments2024-03-26T00:09:13.941-07:00Comments on Dungeon of Signs: The Oldest of the Old School (Part I) S1 Tomb of Horrors - Gygax at his most GygaxianUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-79821517921256093672017-07-12T12:50:35.203-07:002017-07-12T12:50:35.203-07:00Agreed about Divination magic, and, say, scrying s...Agreed about Divination magic, and, say, scrying spells like Wizard Eye. This is the dungeon a lot of those spells are made for. I did want to mention something i noticed about that sleep gas trap is the (unexplained) flight of stairs going upwards that lead nowhere just next to it. (and neither the module or any comment on it seems to mention them) This puzzled me for a long time until it occurred to me - the stairs are a place of refuge where anyone will be safe from the juggernaut. So a party that doesn't bunch up too much could have a member unaffected by the gas who then has to quickly devise a way to safely drag out their companions, but they have somewhere to drag them to.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03201344503348452571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-57478854131564305452017-05-24T07:58:42.994-07:002017-05-24T07:58:42.994-07:00One key aspect of S1 is that it encourages the use...One key aspect of S1 is that it encourages the use of spells beyond the obvious fireballs and hold persons. As Gnarley Bones touches on above, divination magic is key. One could also use "warping" spells such as stone shape, passwall etc. And yes, you can summon monsters and note how they get decimated as they blunder along. <br />Where S1 is difficult is that several traps are of the "get it wrong and you die" variety. And DM calls are important. Would you rule that a stoneskinned PC survives the juggernaut trap?<br />You mention the lack of wandering monsters; an intelligent group is going to advance very cautiously, relearning spells at every opportunity. This can slow play to an unenjoyable crawl. In the 2E boxed set Return to the Tomb of Horrors the original S1 is included, but there is a danger that some powerful necromancers might pop in. The party does have the advantage of a diary of a previous (mostly successful) foray.<br />I think S1 is very successful as a puzzle/trap dungeon. I would agree with DHBoggs that S4 Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth is more quintessentially Gygaxian. He was a master of the fun adventure full of wonder, to be tackled as the players see fit.<br />Interesting review and comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-797501534080191932017-04-27T17:12:48.891-07:002017-04-27T17:12:48.891-07:00I ran the 3.5 version of this not too long ago and...I ran the 3.5 version of this not too long ago and the players managed to get through relatively unscathed. The gargoyle in one of the early rooms proved the greatest threat closely followed by the first, fusillade of arrow trapped door. If I'd chosen, I could've made that encounter a TPK but wisely decided not too.damonjynxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05288527166079695353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-11265019359713729702017-04-23T15:44:55.375-07:002017-04-23T15:44:55.375-07:00Well I have it sitting on my shelf and I ran it on...Well I have it sitting on my shelf and I ran it once in Jr. High (the Blackmoor version) so I know it pretty well. I like Arnesonism generally, having played a couple games with him as a kid and finding his 'you really shouldn't try to kill everything' fairly positive.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-15759055549948921322017-04-23T13:54:35.102-07:002017-04-23T13:54:35.102-07:00Temple of the Frog? Beware that rabbit hole. There...Temple of the Frog? Beware that rabbit hole. There's less than you remember and it's a gateway drug to the "lost module archaeology" that has been the demise of many an intrepid completist.Gnarley Boneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11942095647867654862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-69245908624295007692017-04-23T09:21:53.230-07:002017-04-23T09:21:53.230-07:00B1 - Search for the Unknown is a later creation (a...B1 - Search for the Unknown is a later creation (also not Gygax of course). In the intro to the Little Brown Book Supplement Blackmoor, where the crude version of "Temple of the Frog" lurks Gyga heaps praise on Arneson as the inventor of the "Dungeon Adventure" and while indeed, "Temple of the Frog" is a strange combination of location based exploration adventure and large scale military operation/siege I think in some ways it is closer to the prototypical dungeon crawl of today then G1 or S1.<br /><br />I'm currently reviewing it, and yeah, it's basically Arneson's table notes as confusing, badly mapped and jumbled as one would expect. Still it's got heart, and space aliens. The updated version DA2 is fairly close to the original, and I think on quick glance other then its typical 1986 TSR failings (box text everywhere) and Arneson wordiness a pretty decent adventure. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-21240734947634651482017-04-23T07:37:20.706-07:002017-04-23T07:37:20.706-07:00Well... B1 is probably the prototypical dungeon. ...Well... B1 is probably the prototypical dungeon. Temple of the Frog is a setting, not an adventure per se, and other than some light editing, Kask had nothing to do with it. There's an interesting write up here by DM David: http://dmdavid.com/tag/why-the-temple-of-the-frog-dungeons-dragons-first-printed-dungeon-seemed-unplayable/ <br />If you read that please take note of my response in the comment section.<br /><br />Shifting gears - really detailed and thought provoking review Gus, thanks for that. I'm sure this is one I will re-read more than once in years to come. However I too found the "Gygax at his most Gygaxian" title somewhat odd, but I chalked it up to a bit of hyperbole perhaps referencing Gygax's writing style. As a design though, Tomb of Horrors stands out as pretty unique among Gygax's adventures. I suppose that is largely due to the fact that it's not actually a Gygax design from the ground up. The core scenario was created by Alan Lucien and Gygax ran with it. I suppose in design terms Temple of Elemental Evil or Tsojcanth are about as "Gygaxian" as it gets.<br /><br />By the by, if you do redesign the map for ToH, I'm sure we'd love to see it and hear about what you did. ;)DHBoggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02170439175265397893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-33031540957902924842017-04-22T09:30:08.172-07:002017-04-22T09:30:08.172-07:00I don't think you are wrong about G1 or perhap...I don't think you are wrong about G1 or perhaps even B2 being a contender for 'Most Gygaxian' - of course this raises the question 'which Gygax?' Having only a passing familiarity with Castle Zagyag (that's the Gygax magnum opus right?) Tomb feels pretty similar - traps moving the party to more dangerous areas and similar punishments for a lack of caution. G1 is something different it's more of a 'seige adventure' - almost wargamey with the players needing to determine how to defeat an organized enemy force. This is a totally legitimate adventure style - but it's not Tomb of Horrors.<br /><br />Tomb of Horrors specifically creates a type of adventure - I call it the 'trap dungeon', a location based exploration game, but with a singular focus on puzzles and traps (even the monsters are largely traps in Tomb). It's a pretty hard form to do right both because puzzles/traps are hard to think up and make good and they can create a lot of player frustration.<br /><br />B2 is also it's own sort of adventure form - it's a hybrid of G1's seige and S1's puzzles - a location based exploration that requires faction play (a social/rp puzzle) to get the most out of, includes some puzzles and traps, but isn't mostly about them. <br /><br />B2 of course sets the standards for future adventures - or actually maybe that's Temple of the Frog in the Blackmoor Supplement from 1975? IS Arneson (or Kask perhaps) actually the father of the D&D module? Damn now I need to review Temple of the Frog...Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-89340411601482810812017-04-22T08:43:53.734-07:002017-04-22T08:43:53.734-07:00I would quibble that G1 is the ur-Gygaxian module....I would quibble that G1 is the ur-Gygaxian module. However, I found this an enjoyable read. ToH is often maligned not for its actual content, but rather for its remembered content, which more often than not is incorrect. Moreover, I often also feel that the later ToH imitators paved the way for a collective memory that ToH was an unfair death trap.<br /><br />It isn't. Virtually all of the traps can be avoided, and all of the certain death traps can be. A cautious party using the second-level cleric spell find traps can make it quite far, and there have been several amusing recounts over at Dragonsfoot about successful forays, including the now-famous, "We throw the bag of holding over the bejeweled skull." (Effective!)<br /><br />Indeed, I think the perfect coda to this module is that Gygax wrote it with a specific player, Rob Kuntz, in mind. Yet, Kuntz, playing Sir Robilar, went "outside of the box" and neatly frustrated all of Gygax's clever designs by sending in wave after wave of orc minions ahead of him. <br /><br />In my own play, I was simply too inexperienced as a player in my first two forays. In my third, we were cautious to the point of paranoia, but ran afoul of green slime if memory serves. As a DM, I've only run it once and I recall that the party retreated after defeating the fale demi-lich and called it a day.Gnarley Boneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11942095647867654862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-67893361504350832972017-04-21T16:42:36.091-07:002017-04-21T16:42:36.091-07:00I've found parties that make use of numbers ha...I've found parties that make use of numbers have the most success in the Tomb of Horrors. A band of 8-14th level PCs should have plenty of extra muscle in the form of henchmen, hirelings, charmed minions, and summoned monsters to run afoul of traps before PCs themselves need risk doomJDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-26929251317599462452017-04-21T15:21:42.293-07:002017-04-21T15:21:42.293-07:00I don't I think there's multiple mechanics...I don't I think there's multiple mechanics at play in Tomb of Horrors, most of the micro rules determine how the world reacts to player action, not how the playets act. I.E. a stuck door that has a two in six chance of dropping anyone forcing it into a pit beyond. Its more of a saving throw for an particular negative consequence of action then a roll to determine success. Where some skill based systems would require a roll (finding a hidden poem in the floor decoration), tomb just gives it to a character that examines the floor.<br /><br />This does open the way for greater GM dickery (what's an examination after all?) but encourages players to decide what to do when stumped beyond searching the room with a skill.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4607464045429311026.post-68672503770783794962017-04-21T13:14:31.708-07:002017-04-21T13:14:31.708-07:00How do you feel a 23% chance roll or a 2 in 6 roll...How do you feel a 23% chance roll or a 2 in 6 roll encourage "player skill" more than the roll of a d20? Either way the challenge is being decided by a die roll. Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.com